The title says it all — we cover a ton in Season 2, Episode 2 of UX Leadership by Design, as Mark Baldino talks with Shan Shen, a Principal UX designer at Custom Ink. Shan shares her background in design and her transition to a leadership role as they discuss the challenges designers face in a remote work environment and the importance of creating support systems. Shan shares tips for designers and leaders in navigating difficult situations and emphasizes the need for designers to understand the language of business and focus on delivering value. We’ll say it again — VALUE — is the love language of business.
- Transitioning from a designer to a leadership role takes time and involves understanding one’s unique design skills and how they can create impactful experiences.
- Creating a support system and fostering open communication is crucial for designers, especially in a remote work environment.
- Designers and leaders should focus on listening, empathy, and understanding to navigate difficult situations and support team members.
- Designers need to embrace the language of business and communicate in terms of value to have a strategic impact in organizations.
- Transition from Designer to Leader
- Challenges of Remote Work in Design
- Integrating Business Strategy with Design
- The Role of Empathy in Design
- Strategic Decision Making in Design
- Balancing Self-Care and Professional Growth
- Influences of Design Thinking on Business
- Speaking the Language of Business
- Leadership Skills in the Design Industry
- Creating Value through Design
About Our Guest
Shan Shen is the Principal UX Designer at Custom Ink. She is responsible for leading product design and creating digital experiences for e-commerce customers. Her role involves empowering individuals and organizations to create custom products that promote their cause and foster deep engagement with their communities.
Resources & Links
- Connect with Shan on LinkedIn
- Shan mentoring connection on ADPList
- Connect with Mark on LinkedIn
- Fuzzy Math
00:00 Introduction and Background
01:30 Transitioning to a Leadership Role
03:27 Balancing Act as a Design Leader
06:10 Challenges for Designers in a Remote Work Environment
09:24 Creating Support Systems for Designers
12:27 Tips for Designers and Leaders in Navigating Difficult Situations
22:42 The Role of Design in a Strategic and Business-Oriented Environment
25:11 Communicating Design in the Language of Business
29:12 Focusing on Value and Common Language
Mark Baldino (00:01.794) Hello and welcome to UX Leadership by Design. I am your host, Mark Baldino. I also happen to be a partner at Fuzzy Math, the user experience design consultancy that brings consumer grade UX to B2B and the enterprise. If you have a complicated business application that needs better usability, we are your firm. Today's guest is Shen Chen, who is a principal UX designer at Custom Ink. And we cover a lot. First and foremost, it's going to be very clear that she has a passion for advocating for her team of creatives and a recognition that many of us have but don't always talk about that being a creative is difficult and it's really draining, maybe looks fun from the outside but it can be really, really hard. And we're living in difficult times and sometimes the people on our teams don't always have the tools or the space to work through things and we really need to clear that space and help them navigate difficult situations and kind of be there for them. And, you know, there's also this shift in maybe the role of designers where they're being asked to do things that are more challenging, more strategic. One of those is aligning their work with overall business success and how they can contribute to the business health and success of their organization. And that's a lot. And so we just kind of cover what are some tips and tricks and ways that we as design leaders can help bridge the gap between design and business. And so between those two topics, like I said, we cover a lot, but it's a really enjoyable conversation. So thank you as always for listening and enjoy. Mark Baldino (00:02.577) Shan, welcome to the podcast. Shan Shen (00:05.186) Thanks for having me, Mark. Mark Baldino (00:07.085) Thank you for joining us. I'm very excited about our conversation today. As I do with all of the guests, I know you're a principal UX designer at Custom Ink. I would love to know kind of your background in design, how you got to this role, maybe some of your roles and your job responsibilities that you're at your current position. Shan Shen (00:31.714) Sure. In my customer role, I'm a principal product designer at Customing. It's a company that's focusing on creating customer custom products for organizers and organizations to engage with their communities, promote their brand, and also really helping people to bring their ideas to life. And in my previous role, I'm a designer by training. So in the past roles, I've been in the product design space for a variety of industries transportation with Lyft, video conferencing with Blue Jeans by Verizon, and a few other numerous roles. What brought me back to my current role is a deep compassion for bringing creativity to the powerful customer experiences that we can enable for people and their community during. And I'm really excited for our podcast to talk about a few more topics in detail. Mark Baldino (01:24.486) Fantastic. Mark Baldino (01:30.021) Yeah, yeah, great. What was the transition like from being a designer to being a principal or a lead? I don't know if you have like people management skills, but like it's a big gap for a lot of folks to go from, I design and that is my biggest contribution in a role to I now lead teams and people, and I'm responsible for kind of a bigger picture. What was that transition like for you? What were maybe some of the challenges that you encountered? How'd you overcome those? Shan Shen (01:58.09) Yeah, thanks for asking that. It always is a great joy and also gives me a little bit of discomfort to reflect on my transition as how much is irrelevant to the other designers, my being our audience listening to this podcast, as well as having a reflection for myself. And this transition for me took several years. And I will say that a good part of my transition from a senior to a leadership during pandemic, which is different and everything is all remote. Some of the challenges that I came along the way is one understanding my unique design skills and how that is relevant to create experiences for the people that I care about and organizations that I care about, the business models I am passionate to propel forward, and also have a deeper understanding of detach myself and my values to...lean to learn about the other creatives, other designers, architects, researchers, content designers, you know that the principle has really expanded broadly in our industry that people are bringing very, really unique assets and skills and knowledge to the table. And that allows me to see so much broader and bigger, and also bring me to the passion of, hey, this is something that I'm passionate about into the leadership role because I can enable those skills to play a much bigger impact.to the business. Mark Baldino (03:27.449) Yeah, that's fantastic. What's the secret here? I mean, that's a large sort of variety and backgrounds and skill sets and passions for those people that you're either working with or leading. It sounds like a balancing act. What's the key to that balancing act? Shan Shen (03:50.218) Mm, good question. Acknowledgement and self awareness. I see that's more so in the core center of everything is that always knowing that someone has a different perspective bringing to the table that creates values that compensates to each other helps to bring a multiplier to what we can do and great things that we can do together. That allows me to really lean on that level of collaboration of also learning about disciplines and understanding how that approach is different from a typical designer by training that is very much focused on the crafts and creation part of the experience. Mark Baldino (04:35.421) I think self-awareness, you mentioned, in the sense of being empathetic towards the folks that we work around, it's not always easy. And you mentioned sort of the pandemic, like shifting to a remote world. Sometimes those in-person cues, those in-person relationships, you know, you either have to kind of relearn how to work with people in a remote setting, or maybe it's the first time you're working with someone you've never actually sat in the same room. It requires work on the part of leaders to figure out the best way to leverage the talents and the passions of the people that they work with. And we're creators as designers. I think from the outside, it looks sometimes like a lot of fun. And it is a lot of fun, but there's a lot of sort of challenges that come to being in a...in a creative role and what it requires. And I know one of your passions is kind of advocating for designers and people in creative roles because it is a bit of a challenge. And I think people who haven't lived it maybe don't have that same level of understanding. They haven't maybe walked in the roles of a creative. Again, at the outside, being a creative looks very, very exciting, but it's really kind of a...It's a draining, it can be a very draining career because you're asked to give a lot. So I'd kind of love to hear your thoughts again. Like I know you've mentioned this is something you're passionate about. Shan Shen (06:10.39) Yeah, absolutely. And I'm really glad that we're talking about it because as we know, like when we are looking at the career development and career at large for a creative role, we kind of have to separate ourselves of looking at a pre-pandemic and what happens during pandemic when remote has played such a prominent role on our ways of working and connecting with others for that part of learning. And the designers are really struggling and especially the designers who either by the traditional way of training, that go into the design schools and put them through a long training path of learning the design skills, including those designers who are breaking into the UX that don't have a typical design background, possibly engineering product research, and starting to pick up their creative skills. And there's a variety of trainings out there through boot camps and more to help them ease into the UX and creative part. And one of the things that didn't get really emphasized and supported for those designers is that they don't have that support network that allows them to feel that when they're giving they're also being rewarded and being valued by the things that they create. And I think that's a big missing part that is worse to, it's worse for us to talk more about to recognize that. Mark Baldino (07:35.341) Yeah. And you think you feel like this is the pandemic or the remote work has kind of exacerbated these situations, made them more significant. It's difficult to work in that environment. Do you think the support systems were there in person and then gone have gone remote? Or it's just kind of you're just seeing the kind of negative consequences a little bit more because it's in a remote setting. Shan Shen (08:01.322) Yeah, I think in the beginning of the pandemic, I'm seeing more of the negative consequences of this because that connection is completely through gone remote, through countless meetings, through chats. And that doesn't give you a sense of you can just come over to a senior designer, have a shoulder surfing on something you wanted to gain some clarity, and learn through that in-person practice. And now that on coming out of the pandemic as we are looking at into the 2024 that a lot of workplaces are incorporating this return to office or hybrid working styles. I think that is becoming less of an active factor but also being more encouraging for designers who are in a junior or mid-level positions to develop that in-person skills through that in-person time. Mark Baldino (08:55.153) So I would like to talk about some things that I advise you offer to designers, but before we go there, what are your recommendations for leaders to create these spaces, to watch out for burnout, to help people have the support network? Like, what do you advocate for? What do you do with your team to sort of help ease some of the challenges that creatives have? Shan Shen (09:24.93) Yeah, that's a great touch on as a leader. I'll say that one of the misstep that I've seen that happens over and over again, and myself being part of it as well, because I literally take on leadership responsibilities when during pandemic and that I did not know that the way that you manage your design team or manage your team of remote designers is completely different from managing a team of in-house designers. And that misstep is to have a more intuitive sense of somebody who is not feeling great about what they do. That brings down to the designers maybe not even seeking help at that moment, but just not feeling valued for what the work that they're putting out. That when you're asking them, hey, what is the aspect of the work you have been doing that makes you feel proud? And often that phase into a moment of silence that the designer don't feel that they are attached and feeling great about what they do. And they're more so in that producer mindset. Okay, what is the next where I'm up to deliver and what is everybody else expecting from me, including their peers, their stakeholders, partners and et cetera. And that is a sign that I wanted to bring to awareness for a broader sense of a community, especially for design leaders out there to gain a sense and gain a sense of that awareness that your team is probably not feeling great at the moment and they're not being extremely verbal about that because they don't even know how to, what is the appropriate way to talk about it. Mark Baldino (10:59.717) Right. So we have to create this space. You mentioned being intuitive about it, but I mean, that requires a focus from a leader and frankly, paying attention to some of the signals. I think it's interesting you just mentioned that, like designers might not even know that they're going through something that's a bit of a challenge or they don't necessarily know how they feel or no one's kind of asking them. So I like the idea of, you know, focus on what's rewarding to you, what are you finding value in, and then as a leader trying to create some space. Are there tips you have for designers to sort of... You know, the onus isn't fully on them, but people talk a lot about sort of self-care and taking care of oneself. And I think that there's a dynamic, right? Is it 100% on the employer or leaders to ensure self-care? Is it 100% on the team or on the team member? There's a balance, right? It's a shared responsibility. How do you help the folks you lead sort of be more in touch with kind of how they're feeling, express how they're feeling? Are there tips to help them sort of navigate difficult times or difficult situations? Shan Shen (12:27.298) Yeah, good question. That's definitely a dual effort that the leaders and the individual contributor who take on the hands-on work needs to meet in the middle and help each other to understand what is that space looking like for a more founded trust from both parties to talk about things that are challenging. So I will speak for both positions because I have walked the block. So from an individual contributor perspective, my suggestions for designers is one, give yourself permission that you're not going to be perfect in your professional self, but being authentic with yourself and being able to reflect on what is not great in your experience is really important. And try to distill that feelings out of your experience. Something that can be more objectively talked about. So when you're saying coming to your leaders and engaging with a conversation of, hey, can I just grab a five minutes of you from the hallway to talk about something through or some ideas I have in mind? They are able to verbalize what exactly are the challenges they are facing. So the leaders are able to rush onto it because as you are more developing your leadership path, it's yourlso more disconnected from understanding how this person will fail in that very position in that moment of life. So helping to clarify, bring that clarity to the conversation is really important for a designer. And that we can go into details about how to navigate that technical situation. Now from a design leader's perspective, I'll say that it's...it's really important to still put yourself out there and be available. And that's really difficult because the design leader is responsible for results, for outcomes, to structure the team, to focus on the productivity of the team. And that is extremely difficult. And I'll say it under evaluated across the board in the state of the economic state in the tech industry. But I would still say that as a design leader, still put yourself in the position of being available to support another and just lend a pair of ears to listen. It's fundamental, yeah. Mark Baldino (14:54.001) Yeah, no, it's good advice. It sounds simple, but as you said, it's hard because if somebody's not raising a hand or speaking up or expressing challenges they're going through, it's very easy as a leader, I am guilty of this at times, to think everything's fine and to kind of be like, oh, we're good. But actually that might not be the case under the surface since you kind of, not that you have to pry, but you have to always be open to it and continually make yourself available. And it is, you mentioned trust, it's a lot of building trust, and that's not something that happens quickly or easily. But when you've had a conversation as a leader and you listen attentively, as you said, if you help them navigate a situation, add a few of those together, you can start to build trust and they can know that it's... People use the term safe space a lot these days, but that there's a sense that they can come to you with bigger challenges or different challenges and you're going to help them navigate them, which I think is a really good, and you're not solving it for them. I think it's a really nice phrase to say you're helping them navigate that situation. Shan Shen (16:00.226) Yeah, absolutely. And I say that probably, and I'm interested in hearing your perspective on what are the ways that can navigate the team to build the safety and trust in space, especially that today it's so dynamically different that from one team to another and also bigger team has more teams. They have a different leverage of how they can build trust more practically. And one thing that does come to me really strongly is that...the conversational piece that no matter what you are open to having a conversation of talking things through instead of having each other to internalize what's difficult in their mind. And over time that just creates a much bigger roadblock for the team to navigate and come through. Mark Baldino (16:48.945) I think when I'm meeting with team members, a skill I've learned over time is to listen a lot because I feel like leader of any organization, give them, if they're the head or they're the leader, they're the manager, they're above others in the hierarchy, we're going to fill the void of talking and speak and always feel like you have to have an answer. I think when we're talking about issues that are about human beings and what they're going through day in and day out. It's not really about having an answer. It's about listening and being empathetic towards what they're going through. I have a pretty like, I'm a process-oriented person. I'm a pretty, try to be pretty analytical. Sometimes that really, that kind of flies in the face of just stopping and listening because I always, I hear something and I'm like, okay, let's problem solve, let's go. And that's not what people need. Maybe there's a time for that. But it's generally about listening and understanding. And then, you know...enabling them to maybe take control of the situation, to figure out what's... You know, one thing I've tried a lot not to do too much like human psychology, but like, what's the underlying issue here? What do you think is actually causing you to have this sometimes very visceral response to a client or a teammate, right? And instead of trying to problem solve for them, it's like, what are you actually going through? What is this causing you? What are you struggling with? I'm not asking you to go into their...background or childhood or history, but like this is a situation, it's causing a very distinct response. You're struggling in this situation, help me understand. And then it's about allowing them to at times sit with difficult situations and work through it as opposed to taking them out of it, but give them the support that they need to get through it. Because I do believe that some of the challenging times that my team members have gone through, they've also grown and learned a lot. And that's a valuable part of working. Mark Baldino (18:56.077) Obviously, if it's too challenging a situation that they can't navigate through, then it is removal. But I think a lot of times it's giving them the support to get through it and being patient with them. And I think as you said, enabling them to give themselves some space. I like to say, give yourself some grace here in this situation. You're trying very hard and maybe you made a mistake or this is a challenging time, but you are human and your head is in the right place, your heart is in the right place. Just give yourself a little bit of space here to kind of get through it. Shan Shen (19:27.794) Yeah, absolutely. I love your perspective on it. And two things that I just wanted to say that I really appreciate and I think exactly the same way is one being able to listen. So like switching the leader's mindset of like, tell me about your problem. I'm all in to help you solve it and be like, you know, step that way and be like, hey, just walk me through the difficult situation and be more detailed so I can feel what you feel and see in your lens. Mark Baldino (19:46.373) Yeah. Shan Shen (19:57.07) That's absolutely resonating with me. And the other thing that you just mentioned I is creating that space because everybody is different. And when you from a leader's perspective, when you see something that's not too hard to overcome can be incredibly difficult for the other person. And maybe that is also relating to understanding is it really about a problem that you have encountered in the work that needs to more clarity and help. Or is it something about the personal challenges that you as you are navigating a professional path that you have to overcome? And where your value is contradictory in a positional moment that makes you feel that drag, that because something you have to put forward isn't something that aligns with your personal values and you feel like by doing so, you're being discounted for something you believe in. And that's, yeah, that is really... It's a lot to think about. Mark Baldino (20:57.205) No, it is. And I think not just the remote world, but I feel like the role of design has changed over the past five, six, seven, eight years. And we're asking designers to do more than just design, right? And for UX designers, research has always been part of the process. But if there's a trend in design or fear of designers, it's the commoditization of design. What is...is any role, but what's AI going to do to our role? And are we, you know, is it taking away some of the skills that we used to apply? And the way I've advocated for my design team is to say that, you know, our role in organizations at times has been tactical. And if we want to contribute moving forward and not be commoditized, we need to be more strategic. And part of that is thinking about the business and being more involved in the business and thinking, you know, not just about users and designs, but how does this organization make money? And I think that places a lot of stress on designers because it's kind of a different skill set. It's not something you're going to learn in school. But I know it's something you have sort of experience with, which is, you know, helping design be more impactful in organizations. And I'm kind of curious your take on that. Like, what do you see as the role of design in a more strategic or business oriented environment? What do you think are some of the challenges for leaders who are leading through that? What are some of the challenges maybe for designers as well? Shan Shen (22:42.478) That's a, there's so much, I love the question and there is so much ground pack because there's so many layers in this too, you and each of them to expand on. What comes to my mind in a very brief way is that as designing leaders we need to recognize that we're leading the business. Mark Baldino (22:46.001) Too long of a question, maybe. Too many parts. Mark Baldino (22:54.023) Yeah. Shan Shen (23:07.142) the business to generate value for the business before we come to talk about the merits of design. And in a recent speaking opportunity that I have with Alfred and with Rosenfield media, we talked about how to translate the language of UX into the business setting so that a broader audience that don't typically work with UX, such as well, we will leave product engineering folks because they know UX. I will assume that. But for those other business functions that are not so close to that domain, can also understand the language and what we care about them, what the challenges and approaches to solve the problem that allows us to align and coordinate our efforts to make a more informed form, the business decision. And that's really something that is difficult and dragging for the designers. Because even when you look at that Venn diagram of what the encompassing and successors for the designers to encompass those skills. It's really like technology product design. Where does that business fitting? Like it doesn't share that level of clarity. And then when you look at the establishment of the design process of discovery, iterate, validate, and then that also doesn't bring a lot of clarity in terms of how that business influence each step of the way. And so that is a big challenge for designers to kind of shift their mindset and always remind ourselves that you're here to help make a business decision. Everything will come down to from a qualitative value into a quantitative measurement of metrics and numbers into the business balance sheet. And which part are you actually influencing on and which part you are unique to make an impact on. Mark Baldino (24:52.497) So do you advocate that designers sort of shift how they talk about design, or is it that you encourage them to embrace the language of business, or maybe it's kind of meeting in the middle? Like what's the advice in the shift of how we communicate as designers to better? Shan Shen (25:11.978) Yeah, great question. So two things, or maybe three. You better go off the track and you are bringing it back. Language is really the first step. Making sure that you speak the language, that the other person also being able to speak, sharing the same dialect, if I will, is the first step to establishment and frame your problems and solutions in the same lens. And that enables a broader lens of how are we approaching this problem in a way allows us to make progress. The last one, languages to start. And secondly, is being able to not get too attached to just the design approach. Because design is a big D that encompasses a lot of things that don't shine a way of leaning towards, let's say, designers should code. Yeah, go ahead and learn about web development. Or designers should understand the business part of data analytics to take a bit of a...more approach on understanding how that data plays into those decisions. Yes, link to that. And also being able to walk around you. And that's very hard to grasp on, because everyone now we're all sitting in front of zooming from the webcam all the time. So what does that mean to work around that being able to connect with other disciplines to understand, hey, am I seeing the problem you're saying? Are we also coming to bring our efforts together so you can bring your skills and my skills to see what does that compounding effort will look like if we bring ourselves together and can we coordinate even on the KPIs and performances so that we can understand we're motivated in a coordinated way so that my effort is not canceling your effort out and a lot of those is it requires designers to not about designing but about to going out and engage with other functions so that that's leaning towards the step three so that we can really see how design is so embedded as a part of the business. And everything is about design, but also everything is not just about design. Mark Baldino (27:18.393) Well, I think that's a great summary that it feels like everything's about design, but everything's not about design is a fantastic way to wrap it up because I think it's very easy as a designer. And other disciplines feel the same way, right? If you're a developer, everything's about the technology and implementation. And you kind of come into an environment where that's your bent. That's how you feel. You feel strongly about it. But I really love the advice that you have, which is, where's the common language, what are common terms we can use, how can we speak the same language? And then there's kind of a little bit of a shift when you start talking about KPIs, which is how do we then leverage maybe some language or some concepts that other groups are familiar with, how they measure success and how can we tie design success to those? Because that's ultimately, I think what's important is that for design to be impactful, it has to have an understanding of how it's going to impact business metrics and business KPIs. And I think those two kind of components as challenging as it is, I think they're really required of designers in the now, but in the future, if we really wanna have an impact in organizations and not feel commoditized or that our work could be done simpler, we have to be willing to engage in these conversations to go kind of to difficult places to put ourselves in the shoes of other people in the room, to not just be empathetic with users. I say this all the time, but be empathetic with your coworkers. Yeah, that's a really hard one. Like product engineering, marketing, sales, executive leadership, try to put yourself in their shoes and understand what are the challenges that they're facing? Where are they coming into this situation? What are their goals and drivers? Okay, how do we marry those with what the goals and drivers are from a design perspective so we're all ultimately operating towards, as you said, kind of you know, financial or business success of the organization. Shan Shen (29:12.494) Yeah, the key part of it really, and please, I would love to be challenged to think about differently because languages. It carries so much definitions, everybody says it differently. So I think the language the core part of it is talk about the using the language of value. Talk about values, because no matter what we talk from a business perspective from a customer perspective. Essentially it brought boils down to what exactly the type of value we wanted to deliver we wanted to commit to and being able to shift that experience out and call that this is a love letter we have for our audience, whether that's a customer, a user, like a business, that becomes a really essential part to tie everything together is that value of language. And when designers are coming to use their language of speaking the UX jargon. And granted, that is a great, beautiful thing, because not today, we use very dynamic language to describe the same thing we wanted to use in the UX already, is trying to give that level of context for the non-UX partners to understand. When I'm talking about this thing, particularly being used in the UX for 10 or 20 years, what I'm talking about that, can you understand what it is? For example, we use architecture as an example. Because information architecture has taken such a long journey in the past 15, 20 years that evolved so much. And today when you just say that architecture, like if people come to that perspective in very different approaches. And I think that is giving that level of context in your specific situation, in your specific context you're designing for will be really valuable. Mark Baldino (30:58.729) I would agree. I think your suggestion of focusing on the value, I don't want to challenge you on it because I think you're right. And I think, yes, language is important. Value can mean different things to different groups. But if we can center as a group, multidisciplinary team, can we center around a definition of value and can we all try to aim towards that I think it is a good operating principle for not just design teams and designers, but for, again, that multidisciplinary team that we're working with. So, well, on that note, we covered a lot in the past 30 minutes. I've just thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. And I really do want to thank you for your time and energy and the passion you bring to supporting creatives, to helping them work more kind of constructively within business and learn a new skill set and kind of, I'll say, deliver in what is a challenging environment being in a business but also just kind of the world we live in right now is challenging. So I really appreciate the time, energy, and passion you have and the time of the podcast today. If people want to find you, we can list out your LinkedIn profile, connect there. Anywhere else they could find you, ways you'd want to be reached out to. Shan Shen (32:25.378) Yeah, well, thank you, Mark. And out of everything that we share the same compassion and that brings us to our conversation in the intro chat a couple of weeks ago, and that we wanted to talk about those things that are challenging, that's engaging also, and possibly benefiting those who are listening. And myself is, I have really enjoyed the season one that you have produced with. The episode that talks about the variety of topics. So I'm going to continue listening to your podcast as much as I'm enjoying being a guest here. And the other thing is that for the social handlers, I'm more active on LinkedIn, so you can definitely hit me up. There's just for my name, but also I am taking on the mentorship sessions through ADP list that you can find me and book a session to have a 30 minute chat with me on an ongoing basis. My first availability is next Friday that I typically do the community out there and give back. And so yeah, you can find me on the internet. Mark Baldino (33:25.197) Awesome. All right. We will add links to LinkedIn and if there's a specific link for the mentoring, we'll include that. But I think that just goes to show how much you care, to be quite honest, that you're willing to carve out some time and energy to do mentorship above and beyond your regular duties as a team leader. So again, thank you so much for your time and energy today. It was just a pleasure to communicate. And I know the audience is going to enjoy the episode today. So thank you. Shan Shen (33:52.834) Thank you, Mark.