In this episode of UX Leadership By Design, host Mark Baldino speaks with Gerard Dolan about the challenges teams face in communication, problem identification, and leadership in dynamic work environments. Gerard discusses practical strategies for addressing issues like silos of information, aligning teams, and the importance of building relationships and fostering empathy within an organization. He emphasizes the value of identifying the right problems, facilitating open communication, and maintaining clarity in organizational roles. Gerard also touches on how team structures and leadership decisions can create bottlenecks and how to overcome them through transparency and collaboration.
Key Takeaways
- Breaking Silos to Enhance Communication: Teams often struggle with sharing information across departments. Breaking down “silos of excellence” fosters collaboration and ensures everyone is on the same page.
- Empathy and Understanding Pain Points: Spending time with colleagues and understanding their pain points can build bridges within organizations and improve team cohesion.
- Identifying and Addressing Real Problems: Taking the time to properly identify problems before jumping into solutions is critical for long-term success. Playing back the problem helps ensure everyone understands and is aligned.
- Prioritizing Open Feedback Loops: Regularly following up with team members on research findings or new information builds trust and ensures continuous improvement.
- Leadership Requires Clear Communication: Leaders must be proactive in communicating vision and strategy, ensuring that their teams are aligned and informed, particularly in large or complex organizations.
About Our Guest
A player/coach Principal UX Product Designer with 25+ years of results-focused experience. Gerard designs, iterates, and builds B2B and B2C financial and e-commerce products and services.
Resources & Links
Chapters
- 00:00 Introduction and Background
- 02:52 Understanding Fractional Leadership
- 06:09 Problem Identification and Solution Development
- 09:35 Addressing Acute Problems and Crises
- 12:48 Executing Solutions and Evaluating Teams
- 16:13 Aligning Design and Product Strategy
- 23:26 Tips for Successful Collaboration
- 28:56 Favorite Aspects of the Work
Tags
#uxleadershop, #productleadership, #productstrategy, #communicationtips, #breakingdownsilos, #productalignment
Transcript
Mark Baldino (00:01.474) Hello and welcome to UX Leadership by Design. I'm Mark Baldino, your host. I'm also the co -founder of Fuzzy Math. Fuzzy Math is the user experience design consultancy that brings consumer -grade UX to business applications for B2B and enterprise tools. Today, I speak with Gerard Dolan, who has 25 plus years experience as a UX product designer and now serves as a player coach and a fractional senior product leader. First, we discuss, like, what the heck is fractional leadership, but also like what are the warning signs? What are the alarm bells within an organization that might signify that you need a fractional leader? That you not only have a problem, but one that's big enough to bring in this type of individual. It's generally an acute problem and it requires change. And that change is being forced upon by sort of external or internal forces. And the change must happen quickly through somebody who can kind of quote, hit the ground running. And Gerard shares best practices for the work that he does, which guides organizations through these changes, assessing the problem, writing the ship, getting teams aligned and kind of moving forward. And frankly, there's a lot of overlap with the role that I personally serve on projects with my clients, which is to kind of get in quickly, do this listening exercise, be empathetic, understand the problem, and help kind of align and drive them for change. So the conversation is chock full of useful tips for people in product and design leadership. We discuss a few great frameworks along the way. So thanks for listening, and please enjoy. Mark Baldino (00:01.368) Gerard, welcome to the podcast. Gerard Dolan (00:03.885) Thank you very much, Mark. Appreciate you having me. Mark Baldino (00:06.22) No, I appreciate you joining and spending some time with me. And I know the audience is going to appreciate the conversation as is traditional, should be every podcast. But certainly on this one, give the audience a sense of your backgrounds, how you got to where you are and kind of a high level what you're up to these days. Gerard Dolan (00:28.675) Sure. Well, currently, I'm basically out there in the market as a principal product designer and from a contract standpoint, engagement and fractional design leader. So my past is that came up through corporate branding, actually, got into that world and then moved my way into digital. And the natural tendency was moved towards the strategy and as we got into the digital world, what did that mean and the different roles and as the industry matured. So I was able to work with quite a few projects which were everything from being self -employed and working with startups, working with mid -sized companies and then working on some global brands as well and national brands here in Canada. And, you know, it's been a wonderful experience and still enjoy it and love what I do every day. Yeah. Mark Baldino (01:33.624) There are a lot of folks out there who provide kind of fractional support for organizations. What does it mean for maybe folks who haven't heard the term or heard it and not sure what it actually means kind of in detail and how is it different as an alternative to maybe a traditional, I guess like a full -time hire or something like that. Gerard Dolan (01:59.939) Yeah, it's, you know, similar to the rest of this industry as things change and evolve over the years, you know, the terms and the positioning changes, but there is some important changes that have come out of this role. First of all, fractional leaders tend to be somebody who's got, you know, quite a bit of experience under the belt. We're talking 20 or 30 years worth of experience and blending strategic as well as operational. So. Gerard Dolan (02:29.679) Nothing wrong with other types of engagements, but this is what fractional really means to, especially from our business side of our colleagues. And basically you brought in a part -time or as needed basis and you're offering an effective solution basically to a business who has a particular problem at a certain time of uncertainty. And professional leaders basically are able to come in, work with senior leadership and enable the business to access expertise without the full -time commitment. And rather than them having to double down on trying to find a very senior leader who can't fit all, maybe all the check marks, somebody who can come in in a short -term basis and really land with their feet running and nail it. Mark Baldino (03:20.758) And so is my assumption correct? You alluded to like, they're facing a problem. I mean, is there an, is this like an acute pain an organization is facing that they realize like, hey, I need somebody to hit the ground running. I need somebody fractional like ASAP. Gerard Dolan (03:35.457) Yeah, and it could vary, right? You know, it's kind of interesting. We're coming into August right now and my years ago and my former lives working full time. I've got nervous in September. mean, the market's always crashed in September. Right. And the way I like to explain this is it's usually when the B has hits the fan with sales that they've kind of promised a lot for the year. Q3 comes up and it's September and actual numbers come out, right? So that is an extreme or a crisis, acute problems or crisis. Those are funny words or interesting words. But what does it mean from a corporate perspective in regards to acute situation or crisis? And it usually comes down to an imminent threat, again. It's very severe words here. But, you know, stability or potential harm that could be needs to be addressed immediately. Right. Another opportunity or kind of characteristic of a crisis or an imminent threat could be a surprise. Something comes up and it could be a merger acquisitions. Design leadership, product leadership finds out that there's a whole other platform that they're all of a sudden responsible for that they weren't aware of and they didn't plan for at the beginning of year and there was no way to know. And then there's another one is the time pressure and worked in organizations that found out that they're over budget and back to the Q3, the positive side of that, they find out, we've overestimated or underestimated rather, we have this surplus and what can we do with, we have to get this done. in the next in the end of by the end of year we lose our budget for it next year and that's where a fractional leader can come in and really help. Mark Baldino (05:28.778) I imagine a lot of folks listening to the podcast will be nodding their head specifically fall time, but like, yes, I've experienced all of those or I'm experiencing them now. So we have this kind of acute problem. have an acute crisis. We bring in you like what, what are your top? don't if it's a priority. You mentioned stabilization or is it a process you're going to follow? Like, what are you going to help do to What are your first few steps that you take to assist this organization? As you said earlier, fractional leaders should be able to come in and hit the ground running, but what's that Gerard Dolan (06:09.559) Honestly, it's the basics of a design project, which is you come in and you listen, right? And you have to understand the problem, right, from the beginning and play back that problem to you, whoever's brought you in, and understand their context and then help frame that problem. You're not there to solve everything but you're here to solve something within a specific amount of time. So you have to start, you know, I the term, but peeling back the onion at this point of figuring out like, here's all the problems and this is what I'm hearing. And this is why you brought me in. This is what I can do for you. And this is what I cannot do for you. And back to what I can, this is what I can do in this amount of time. And then peeling back, what are the options here? Those, how you solve that problem comes down to money, resources and time. And here's what I can do for you for this amount of money and this amount of resources that might be required or if there's no resources, this is what I can do for you and frame up that problem back and play it back to the senior leadership or other people who have the authority. Mark Baldino (07:18.766) How are you doing that quickly, right? Somebody's bringing in you for a crisis and then your first step, it is very similar to the design, as you said, the design process, which is we're going to listen, we're going to empathize, we're going to do some research and everyone's like, no, skip all of that. Here's the problem, go. And it's specifically, it's like a fractional. Are you in a spot where it's like they're asking you to produce and your first step is I need to listen to the problem. maybe I'm making up a problem that doesn't exist, but does that challenge exist? Okay. Gerard Dolan (07:44.735) no, it's, Mark, definitely exists. Yeah. One thing I've learned over my career, you know, did a lot of work in strategy and, you know, it's... The best thing about strategy, or one thing that it's probably used as like a negative towards strategy, it's gonna take a lot of time and you're gonna, you they're gonna have to come back in six months or something, by then the problem will be done or away. Where I'm going with this is what I've learned is to work iteratively. And this is from my experience of working on agile teams and bringing that kind of experience of Working as a group and sharing like working sharing your work as it's on the fly And not having to come back with this is this the the final solution. I can't I can't do anything until the final solution Every meeting I'm capturing information usually using a digital whiteboard and playing it back to people this is what I've heard this is why you brought me in and That that's the business ask you haven't framed what the actual problem is at that point. So you start working through it and you just keep asking questions and playing it back. Okay, this is what I believe at this stage. I'm not saying that this is the problem, but so far this is what I believe the problem is. And people don't know what they don't know. And there's the old adage of, know, from the service design world of ask the question why five times and you'll finally get down to like critical thinking here. What is the actual problem we're having here? And at a certain point sometimes it says, no, yeah, they're just like, get it done. Based off of what I've heard, this is what I understand the problem be, and this is how I can help you. Or I'm not the person to help you. Mark Baldino (09:35.758) Right, right. That's always a tough one, right? Which is, this is not the right situation for me in my role to help you. I mean, specifically somebody who's coming in, is your job is to find organizations to help, right? They find you and then you're gonna step back and be like, no thanks. But it is a real realization that you can't solve every problem. And if the organization's not set up, Gerard Dolan (09:55.532) Yeah, no. Mark Baldino (10:02.744) properly or set up for, and it's not success, don't know what the right framing is. Like sometimes it's just, maybe the situation can't be helped. Gerard Dolan (10:09.859) True, but there's a lot of other factors that are brought in here, such as the altitude that you've been brought in within an organization. Very different if you've been brought in by the president versus a senior manager. That's one. And another one is the type of company we're talking about here. Is it a startup or is it just a corporate or a blue chip organization? In those cases, the larger ones, You're talking about challenges that are outside of the silo, right? So what you can bring to the table is you've identified these problems for them, which is value, and you then do an overview of what you think the problems are and what the next steps are. And that is your parting gift as the completion of the project. And that's pretty much for every project. There's never like in a... It's like, yes, I've completed one need for you, but by the way, we also found out this other information, which I think would be very helpful for you next quarter or next year, whenever you're doing your planning. Mark Baldino (11:17.626) What's your role in problem identification, some level of sense of stability with the organization? So you're kind of assessing, you're playing back the problem for them. You're then generating what you think is the solution or you then, or series of solutions or series of steps they need to take, are you then executing those steps? Gerard Dolan (11:40.927) depends on the engagement. I generally prefer to be the one who's there. That the problem is like, I've tried to remember the fellow's name, but the book is played bigger and he's basically states, you you really nail the problem when it cannot be unseen anymore. Right. And, once you hit that name, that problem, they generally can't let it go. It's a, it's a house on fire at this point. Right. You've helped them identify, or maybe they've done it, that they've identified this blocker is going on that is causing quite a bit of friction for the rest of the organization or the rest of the team. Mark Baldino (12:24.14) So that's, mean, and I'm not asking you to pitch yourself, but I'm happy to pitch you if there's organizations out there. Your role as like a fractional product leader is to get to the heart of the problem that this organization faces that maybe they haven't even seen or aren't able to identify. And it's illuminating that for them. That is one of the true values. Gerard Dolan (12:48.373) Yeah, know, common in the ones, you know, depending on where they are, could be starting a new product or service, right? They don't understand the client, the user as well as they should, or they have a first draft that, you know, or a first round of their product or service, and they need validation of what's going on in the market, right? Or in the field with it. And then the second half of that is they have a product or service that has been around for a while and they're looking to understand what they need to do next. I can help with that product discovery and then help frame it up in regards to what the next steps would be and how to implement it. the skills that I have is to come in as the lead of maybe they want to spin up a pod or a task. force team to further identify those those problems to get to them to the point that they're defined enough that they can be actioned upon. There's a great framework, I always mess up the name but Cynefin, it's a Welsh word, it's a difficult word, don't know why, gentlemen picked it but there you go. And I love this framework because it's about, I do a lot of facilitations and workshops with senior leadership. Mark Baldino (14:02.2) You Gerard Dolan (14:10.691) And this could be in some cases 10 people, but I've done up to 40 or 50 people. And what we're doing at this point in this session is I've done all the interviews and everything else beforehand with everybody. I've talked to them. I got their information with them. They got their ideas from them. And I prepped these workshops that all that information is there at the beginning that I play it back to them. we, as a team and The downside, know, there's a lot of downsides of the COVID, I'm working remotely pandemic, no, no, no arguing that, but some of the upsides, I would never have believed beforehand that running workshops would be, in my opinion, better online. And the reason why I believe that is because that people who normally would not participate or contribute in person for various reasons. that that barrier is gone. And doing a workshop online, presenting this work and back to the framework I mentioned, having them take each one of those ideas and from their seat, what do they believe? Is this a simple project, a certain problem? Is it a complex, a complicated problem? or a complex problem or chaotic problem. And I'll break those down and simple, let's use a car analogy. You run out of gas. Well, there are solutions out there for that. can know there's gas stations that might be far away and there's a tow truck if you need it. A complicated problem. No, maybe you got a flat tire. Okay, you're going to be inconvenienced. You're going to miss a meeting, but there are solutions out there already for that. Complex is the interesting one, which is, your transmission breaks. Well, you're going to lose your car. You don't know how many days it's going to be in the shop. You're to miss meetings and everything else. And then the chaotic problem is your car is on fire. Nothing left of it. It's destroyed. Gerard Dolan (16:00.491) We put those problems in those different buckets. And what we're looking for is the complex ones here, because those are the interesting problems that need to be further defined, but could be actioned with the resources the team has already. Chaotic ones, no. Those have to be taken off the table. The team is not being set up for success at this point. Mark Baldino (16:13.335) you Gerard Dolan (16:21.771) And back to the simple and the complicated ones, those ones are the ones that should go to the roadmap because you do have the existing services for those to do that, the resources and the skills and the expertise. So I can help with that, facilitating that conversation, but then taking it further from there and building it up with the information from everyone to build something that is an actionable engagement to move forward. Mark Baldino (16:47.138) Yeah, fantastic. Thanks for walking through. love a good framework. I'm going to borrow that and utilize it because I think a podcast I just did was on prioritization, which is an interesting topic in and of itself. But sometimes it's maybe less about prioritization and organization or bucketing of items. And I think then saying like, I love the idea that if it falls into the chaotic, we're going to... We're going to put that in another bucket. It's in the parking lot and they can deal with it, but let's find these kind concepts. Gerard Dolan (17:16.993) Well, it's also assigning to somebody. Okay. This has been brought up by the team. Who is taking this away and building it out? By the way, that framework is from David Snowden. It's a wonderful framework. So. Mark Baldino (17:20.876) Yeah. Yep. Yep. Mark Baldino (17:30.816) Awesome. We will link to that when we post the podcast. So I appreciate that. How is part of these engagements, and maybe it's kind of part of the fractional services you offer just as you're there, like, are you evaluating the team that's doing the work? Are you helping develop that team, helping them sort of grow? Are you, you know, teach them to fish so that when you're gone, when your fractional role ends, they're doing these exercises? Or are you kind of coming in, I'm going to I'm going to deal with this crisis and I'm going to step out. Like what's your balance between sort of the strategic involvement and maybe the longer term growth of the product organization at a. Gerard Dolan (18:09.901) That has been a different beast depending on the engagement. Going into certain organizations, they have the quote unquote maturity model and they are further along. So back to my altitude may not be at the top where I'm bringing in changing ideas about new frameworks to use or new approaches and new engagement models for the larger organization. But I might be further lower in the altitude where at a pod level, I'm trying to influence the decision -making processes and how things are prioritized. and bringing best practices to the table. In some cases, just making sure that the basics are being done and covered. That may or may not be involved with, as a fractional leader, don't deal with HR related issues with, I'm not looking at compensation and have those conversations. Mark Baldino (19:10.225) issues. Gerard Dolan (19:15.291) Other organizations that I've engaged with, yeah, after the problem has been resolved and they understand they need a new pod and they, you I've been asked to lead that, or that new initiative. It's either working with existing resources, unquote resources, but actual people and understanding who has the right skill set or who wants to learn the right skill sets for this particular engagement. And or usually it's also helping with recruitment, interviewing processes and making sure I stand up the team and bringing in the appropriate ideas and approaches. Again, every organization, you know, it's very different. Every organization is different. Some organizations have a tried and true approach to things and have never maybe dealt with a merger. Mark Baldino (19:46.849) Okay. Mark Baldino (19:58.698) Thank Gerard Dolan (20:10.335) of bringing in, you know, the company's purchased a competitor or a complementary product and they need somebody who's going to bridge that gap. It's not a long -term requirement, but they do need somebody back to those lists of kind of crisis situations. Somebody who can, you know, for six months to a year or whatever it is, help effectively and efficiently, you know, build the bridge and get that done. Mark Baldino (20:40.45) Yeah. And I think quickly in these cases as well. I mean, as you go back to the, the ground running, right? Like standing up a CPO role within an organization that doesn't have one, but has a product management team is like, that's a large structural change and folks can get immediate benefit from somebody with your skillset that has this kind of strategic lens assessment, problem finding lens, you're kind of this player coach role. And then helping in certain cases, sounds like the organization set up for longer term sort of success. Gerard Dolan (21:16.343) Yeah, it's providing the appropriate direction. back to the old joke, looking at the map and saying, dragons be there. Making sure that they're aware, yeah. Not just today, but down the road, the way you're planning on setting this up, these are the limitations you may hit. I also want to point out something else. sure you've seen this and learned this before. And especially I see this in smaller organizations or with a larger organizations, they set up smaller teams or departments. They sometimes over hire. And what I mean by that is they give out titles and those kinds of things. And, you know, we're talking about the one to five or one to 15 kind of size. And then when they get over 15 or with a large organization, that team, they start trying moving some of those members from that team to a different team or vice versa. The skills don't align, but the titles don't align either. And it causes a lot of problems. So helping having those conversations and, you know, being, being honest and being frank and, know, and some cases, not just in those conversations, but also when the senior leader of the product team or the design team can't be in the room with conversations, whether it be about team structure and or dealing with colleagues on the other side of the fence, whether in technology or on the business side or marketing, being the grownup in the room to have the conversation. Mark Baldino (22:57.031) Fair enough. I come from a design background. work daily with product leaders, clients. What do you see as the overlapping? We run workshops, we do roadmaps. What do you think are the overlaps in, I want to say skill sets, inputs, outputs? What are some tips and tricks for aligning design strategy and product strategy and what are successful organizations do in order to have those two groups kind of working harmoniously and out there solving this, the right. Gerard Dolan (23:44.449) I don't know, Mark, maybe you and I should write a book about it. I'm King. that, you know, I guess I'll go back in time and talk about a team I led in a very large agency. And, know, we're talking about, think, forget, had six or something, six or seven floors of people. And used to tell my team that if it takes more than two emails. Mark Baldino (23:46.878) Hahaha Gerard Dolan (24:14.401) when you're asking a question, get up from your seat, go down that elevator and go talk to that person. Nobody picked up their phones at that time. Anyways, everyone was moving to mobile and nobody answered their desk phones. It's communication. I mean, all those things you just talked about there, it's understanding your colleagues and their pain points. I mean, again, with that same team that I talked about, Mark Baldino (24:26.35) Right, right. Gerard Dolan (24:43.809) It was a junior team. I didn't have much resources and I was bringing in hiring interns and then training them up. After three months, they would have to do a contract and after three months, we hired them full time if they were catching information and willing to learn and working hard, which they all were. What we used to do was, because they hadn't had a lot of experience in presenting to clients, we used to... created together as a team, very rough personas about this is you're going to be presenting, there's a CMO in the room. This is what their job is. And this is what they care about. Right. They're not caring about, you know, how hard you worked on the wire frames or they don't care about Figma's last conference, those kinds of things. So that's your point. It's like understanding what the roadmap is and what the decisions were. And there's a lot of challenges when it comes to just labeling things. Just the titles of these projects don't make any sense to people. Or if they don't make any sense, ask why. Former boss of mining, great mentor, learned so much from him. There are no stupid questions, especially at beginning of the project. Don't be afraid to put your hand up and ask a stupid question and label it. I'm the newbie in the room. I'm going to ask you really stupid question here. charting stupid things, especially in larger organizations, acronyms. You go into these companies and they speak their own language, learning that language, just because they say, a roadmap. What does it look like and what does it mean? Try and look for the ins and outs. inputs and outputs. Who, this particular document, let's say it's a roadmap, who were the people that provided the input to this? Names and titles. And what is the output of this? Who does use this and how does it get used? And yes, it's not gonna be perfect, right? Understand that. That's your opportunity to bring some value there. So overlapping skill sets. Gerard Dolan (26:59.139) Yes, it's all the things we learned about running the basics of a good design project, but taking that extra step further and willing to go spend time and sit down with people. I think one of the best things you can do as you get up and running in the first 90 days and you start assessing the lay of the land and getting to know these people and actually go have coffee with them. and talk to them about what their needs are and what their pain points are. And then when you have research sessions or anything that you've done later on, that information comes up that you go, this is relevant to that person I spoke to, call them back and send it to that information to them. And that helps build the bridge. Mark Baldino (27:46.626) Yeah. Gerard Dolan (27:46.647) They starts breaking down, especially large organizations, there can be an unwillingness to share information. Or as one of my former clients called it, silos of excellence. Mark Baldino (27:54.221) Yeah. Mark Baldino (27:58.254) That's good as opposed to center of excellence, silos of excellence. It's hard to break those barriers down. And I think it does come down to one -on -one, human -to -human sort of bridge building, as you said, empathy. I love the idea of kind of the personas. I love the idea of what was the inputs and who created this? What were their titles? Who's going to use this? Like all that stuff, I think a lot of times gets just not documented or brushed over. Gerard Dolan (28:04.344) Yes. Mark Baldino (28:27.576) people who are doing product, good solid product and design work are not being set up by their leadership for success and they're walking into rooms and things don't always go as well. So I just want to ask one final question. It's not, hopefully not a curve ball, but like I can tell you enjoy this type of work and are passionate about sort of the type of sort of fractional leadership you're providing at organizations of different sizes and with different challenges, but like. Give me the top, what's your favorite part about the work you're doing? Gerard Dolan (29:01.379) I'm gonna say learning. I just really enjoy understanding complex problems and solving them or working with people to solve them and learning from that and learning from you, you everybody that we get to work with every day. We're very, very fortunate to do what we do. And I think that's lost. Sometimes I know that for myself. when there's been, you know, lulls in my career, I would say. I have to remind myself that, you know, come a long way and on top of that, how much you've learned since you started. You're talking about frameworks and just a simple framework, write down all those things, your problems and everything else that's going on and draw a line, put them on the left hand side, draw the center down saying that is today. Moving forward, what are the things you can learn moving forward with this new project you have that may not be your favorite project? And I'll just throw something else in here. It's like I posted the other day, just kind of donning me because I've been saying this a lot to some of the people that I've coached. Every project or every role I've ever taken has come down to three things. Not in this particular order. Good people, good work, or good money. And it's gotta be one of those three things. Otherwise, why the hell are you doing it? So I've done work in the past for people I really enjoyed working with. And I thought they were some of the smartest people, nicest people I've ever met. Or I really believed in what they were trying to do because they were just really passionate about what they're doing. I've done other projects where I didn't, you it was all about the work. I just wanted to work on the project like that. Mark Baldino (30:48.877) Yep. Gerard Dolan (30:50.061) And then there's quite frankly, other projects where I did it for the money. So, and I don't think there's a problem with that. But if you look at your job today and you've got all three of those things, you're incredibly lucky and very fortunate person. Mark Baldino (31:02.168) Right on. Well, I think that's a perfect way to wrap up. Thank you for adding that last note there. I think it's invaluable for anybody in any role. If people want to find you, I know I'm connected with you on LinkedIn. Is there anywhere else they can find you? Gerard Dolan (31:17.771) LinkedIn's the best. I'm just sparking up my latest rev of my website. I know we were talking about upgrading skills, learning framer as well. So we're getting there. We're getting there. Mark Baldino (31:28.518) Awesome. Awesome. Good on you. Well, we will certainly link to your LinkedIn and your website, but Gerard, just want to say thank you for your time today. Appreciate the conversation and you sharing your kind of role experience and I think offering some really good nuggets and frameworks for folks that are facing some challenges in their organization and how they can now work through those. Gerard Dolan (31:51.085) Thank you, Mark. I greatly appreciate the time. Mark Baldino (31:54.146) You bet. Thank you.